This idea came into my head after a comment somebody made here regarding magic, spells, and other things supernatural. I just want to know if it's a completely crackpot idea, or maybe has some merit to it.

The laws of Newtonian physics absolutely doesn't allow for magic, or anything supernatural. F=ma and the like. No room for argument. You can't get something from nothing. However, quantum mechanics throws into the mix that the world we live in is governed by observation by a sentient being. So, if a civilization hasn't yet studied anything relating to science, physics, etc., is it possible that the rules of physics might not strictly govern their doings? That physics itself would exist only in some indeterminate state, until those people began to study the way things work?

Sounds pretty crazy to me, and I've never seriously studied quantum physics. The idea came to me though, so I figured I would throw it out here for you to comment on.

I wish *I* could get high this early in the day...

Quantum physics only really works on a subatomic level. Once you get to macroscopic observation, the cumulative effect of the law of averages means that regular, Newtonian physical laws will govern how things act and react regardless of the knowledge of the individual.


Oh, and I slept with your mom, moran.

i always wondered why people floated before gravity was discovered...

Damn! You've done it... you've solved the mysteris of the ages! Call Nature! Call Science! Call Fox News!

Seriously, man... lay off of the marijuana waffles for a while.

If a tree falls in the forest....

The laws of physics exist regardless of whether one observes them or not.

Swordfish have no time for tea. We'll make that clear by noon.

Getting stoned before noon is not really a good idea.

Ask that question later tonight with the TF night crew.

got any left?

Good lord dude...

a) Put the bong down
b) No, you sound like an idiot.

just because you haven't studied something or you haven't discovered, regarding physics...it still exists.

If you had never studied the Law of Gravity. Never researched it. Never heard of it. Didn't know of it's existence.

If you jumped off a building...you wouldn't float in mid-air and not fall to your death.

The laws of Physics are still there even if you haven't looked into them yet.

Damn dude

I've never studied physics in any way, but I'm pretty sure the whole "Schroedinger's Cat" thing doesn't apply to entire branches of science.

However, quantum mechanics throws into the mix that the world we live in is governed by observation by a sentient being.

Care to point out a reference that makes such a statement.

and I've never seriously studied quantum physics

Apparently not, but hey, we have the internets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics

bulldg4life: If you jumped off a building...you wouldn't float in mid-air and not fall to your death.

What if I don't look down?

lordargent: Apparently not, but hey, we have the internets.

That's actually pretty decent overview. I personally like The Story of Schroedinger's Cat from the Straight Dope

bulldg4life

I dunno man, if my childhood taught me anything, it is that if you are in mid-air, you will not fall until you realize that there is such a thing as gravity. Just ask this guy.

Aw, c'mon, lay off the poor guy. At least he's interested in the subject, right? We need more people taking an active interest in science.

PianoJosh, I recommend reading Six Easy Pieces by the brilliant Richard Feynman if you, as a layperson, are interested in learning a bit more about quantum mechanics.

Damnit. Picture an image of Wyle e coyote standing in mid air there...

If someone hasn't studied physics and had no idea about Newton and F=ma etc, then things that happen could be attributed to "magic." I believe that's exactly what people did for thousands of years before Newton, Einstein, et al.

LineNoise: Damnit. Picture an image of Wyle e coyote standing in mid air there...

hahaha

I understand

Quantum is an extention of "classical" (Newtonian) physics. Quantum is also known to be "incomplete", which means it does not exactly describe how the universe functions in it's entirety. There are groups working on extending the quantum model onto a "macro" level.

As for something not existing until it is "observed", that's pretty far fetched.

CcSteff: Six Easy Pieces

I wasn't too impressed with that book until I started reading the last chapter. He was pretty good with analogies there...

CcSteff Aw, c'mon, lay off the poor guy. At least he's interested in the subject, right? We need more people taking an active interest in science.

Spoilsport.

PianoJosh:

However, quantum mechanics throws into the mix that the world we live in is governed by observation by a sentient being.

No. It's doesn't. You misunderstand. Sorry.

Sentience has nothing to do with QM, much like Fark™

/just sayin'

the devil invented quantum mechanics to confuse you. REPENT!

/cant wait for the first quantum computer

/just sayin'

You need to read some Paramahansa Yogananda.

That mind-over-matter stuff is for real.

Well, don't know much about physics...but...anythign is possibel with Fark Quarks, and lots of drugs, good drugs, hallucinatory drugs, oxygen deprivation, brain damage, and drugs...

JJ Money: That mind-over-matter stuff is for real.

Eh?

Can you provide an explaination that doesn't violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics?


/Is *this* house, we obey the laws of physics!

peck:

Can you provide an explaination that doesn't violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

/Is *this* house, we obey the laws of physics!

Ah...all matter is but vibrating energy.

The laws of physics describe what they describe, but there's more to the picture.

Check out tibetan monks...Indian monks...Uri Geller (whatever his scene is)...ESP is legit like MC Hammer.

*turns into luminous flesh and ascends*

even though 'normal' human beings may not be able to perform 'magic' deeds.

it does not prove that supernatural feats cannot be performed, at all...ever.

jesus broke the 'laws' of physics, on a regular basis.

who knows if the devil has been given the right to enable people with supernatural powers.

-if god wanted you to move that mountain with your mind...he would enable you to do so.

i suppose god likes things the way they are.

for now.

I_C_Weener: Fark Quarks

Don't forget about acronym drugs!

example...karl rove.

that man is the living embodiment of luciferian powers on earth.

and the whole bush admin, for that matter.

-just because you can't see 'it'...doesn't make it not so.

Marcus Aurelius:

As for something not existing until it is "observed", that's pretty far fetched.

Far fetched in your opinion, Einstein's, but not in the opinions of other respected thinks who have some experimental support for their position. This topic is one for serious discussion by scientists, e.g.:

http://www.eequalsmcsquared.auckland.ac.nz/sites/emc2/tl/philosophy/moon.cfm

I had to read a very similar article in my first upper-level quantum class close to twenty years ago. Check it out if you're interested in the philosophy of quantum mechanicsm.

*gets out big PhysicsWompingStick®*

JJ Money:

Ah...all matter is but vibrating energy.

No. It's....oh heck. No.

The laws of physics describe what they describe, but there's more to the picture.

Yes. Although the correct term is "model", not "describe".

Check out tibetan monks...Indian monks...Uri Geller (whatever his scene is)...ESP is legit like MC Hammer.

Monks have mind-over-mind/body control. Uri Geller is a fraud (proven). ESP is unproven, unlikely and in extreme violation of Claude Shannon's theorems (among other problems).

*turns into luminous flesh and ascends*

*golf clap* Teach me that!


/P.S. I'm a Discoridan priest, so my mind is so open that things fall out - I'm not just a physics hard-ass and contrarian. Well, I am, but that doesn't apply here. But it could...

Bauer:

jesus broke the 'laws' of physics, on a regular basis.

Eh?

who knows if the devil has been given the right to enable people with supernatural powers.

Wha?

-if god wanted you to move that mountain with your mind...he would enable you to do so.

Uhhh?

i suppose god likes things the way they are.
for now.

Ahem. God is a woman, and Her name is Eris.

Bauer: jesus broke the 'laws' of physics, on a regular basis.

I don't think you can use the Bible as a source for citing scientific information. The books were written by people, and despite their good intentions, observations by people are rarely accurate - especially when those observations have been subject to as many revisions (mostly unintentional) as the Bible.

However, if we assume that Jesus did break some laws of physics, that is more of a statement that questions the accuracy of the laws as we understand them, not his ability to break them. We've come quite far in understanding physics, but if history is any indicator, those laws are likely to be modified in the future as our understanding of them improves.

*materializes*

All I'm saying is that mathematical models are artifices that are created to model the machinations of the world.

I don't beleive in materialist theory. I don't think that the structure of matter and energy has been properly laid down yet. There ought to be a more perfect concept of the atom that comes along some days.

Peck, I could offer some "light" reading, but you'd have to have an open mind.

There are definite Laws that God has made the universe function around, but secular man has yet to discover many of them. Not that I've discovered many of them...but I know darn good and well that there are many energy phenomena and things that are invisible to the eye which are every bit as real as the wood in this desk, just in a form which my eyes can't detect.

*re-luminates*

It's all in the mind...

peck

Eh?

Wha?

Uhhh?

I couldn't've said it better myself.

ESP is real, though. There's nothing supernatural about it, of course. There IS nothing supernatural.

-is that your so?

so many gods...so little time.

but I know darn good and well that there are many energy phenomena and things that are invisible to the eye which are every bit as real as the wood in this desk, just in a form which my eyes can't detect.

but I know darn good and well that there are many energy phenomena and things that are invisible to the eye which are every bit as real as the wood in this desk, just in a form which my eyes can't detect.


Sure. That's why we build bolometers, antennas, neutrino observatories, etc. Eyes kind of suck for seeing everything that's going on and quantifying it for others. That's why professional astronomers have given up naked eye observing for about the last century or so (and we don't take crap about canals on Mars and similar illusions so often as a result).

JJ Money:

mathematical models are artifices that are created to model the machinations of the world.

Agreed, 100% (+/- rounding errors)


I don't think that the structure of matter and energy has been properly laid down yet.

Agreed! Thankfully science is a process, not an answer.


I could offer some "light" reading, but you'd have to have an open mind.

Dude, I already said it was so open that things fall out. Try me. Have you pondered, "Coincidence", by Robert Anton Wilson?



It's all in the mind...

And the mind is all in the universe...

Alexis: There IS nothing supernatural.

Don't be getting all technically accurate on me, young lady!

Bauer: is that your SO?

No. Eris was first identified by that name by the ancient Greeks. To them, she was the Goddess of Discord. If you remember the old myth of the Golden Apple (that led to the start of the Trojan war), she's the one who supposedly fashioned the apple.

In more recent times, She has been 'rediscovered' and Her works are alluded to in the Principia Discordia

i have seen traces of my own esp, from my dealings with others.

it is supernatural.

-it is because we are all connected, in ways none of us can fathom.

yet.

i think that there are levels to esp, ranging from deja vu to sensing a persons 'politics' and being 'like minded'...to all out remote viewing.

on this world...it's all politics.

-politics and the devil.

thanks for the link...

i'm into the 'greek'.

well...you know.

-not that there's anything wrong with that.

;)

we must also consider that dinosaus communicated with each other.

that in itself...is supernatural.

was their launguage born unto them...or did it come about due to each creatures particular genetics?

could a t-rex understand, say, a triceratops?

-in the heat of battle?

that is what i'm wondering.

"i'm going to horn you, farker"

and such.

peck: Agreed! Thankfully science is a process, not an answer.

Now if only more people recognized that instead of relying on it solely for their eyes and ears!

I haven't read that book, peck, but I'll gmail you an ebook that deals with much of what we are discussing. Let's see how open your mind really is ;P

Bauer:

i think that there are levels to esp, ranging from deja vu to sensing a persons 'politics' and being 'like minded'...to all out remote viewing.

Yuuup! When you think of time as a circle or a curly cord, it starts to make more sense.

JJ Money: Let's see how open your mind really is

Can't you hear the breeze?


/check out the RAW book, if you get a chance, blew my mind when I was in my hippie phase.

Bauer: we must also consider that dinosaus communicated with each other.

that in itself...is supernatural.

How is that supernatural? Communication is pretty much par for the course when we're talking about vertebrates. I'll go with "natural."

Thanks for the recommendation peck, I'll watch for that book.

I just gmailed you my profferance.

Bauer: jesus broke the 'laws' of physics, on a regular basis.

Uh...you may want to go with a more solid argument on that one.

example...karl rove.

that man is the living embodiment of luciferian powers on earth.

and the whole bush admin, for that matter.

-just because you can't see 'it'...doesn't make it not so.

Woah man. So, how are things at the compound?

Bauer:

we must also consider that dinosaus communicated with each other.

that in itself...is supernatural.

What on earth are you talking about?

we must also consider that dinosaus communicated with each other.

that in itself...is supernatural.

was their launguage born unto them...or did it come about due to each creatures particular genetics?

could a t-rex understand, say, a triceratops?

-in the heat of battle?

that is what i'm wondering.

The crack pipes win! Nothing is going to compare to that today.

Dinosaur cell phones must have been really big because their ears are really far away from their mouths and some of them couldn't hold them so they'd have to have someone else strap it to their thigh or something.

i'm just another temporarily disconnected human.

i know nothing, other than to say that we're all inbred.

'bible' or 'darwin'.

we all shot out from the same root...at one time.

-we are all connected at some level.

nobody has the knowledge, or the right to state that we humans cannot slide around the laws of physics.

it is grandiosity, to do so.

-we know 'little'.

i didn't say we knew jack shiat, mind you.

some jedi said..."your focus determines your reality"

works for baseball.

for my kid, that is.

-whatever....

Uberchief: What on earth are you talking about?

I stepped slowly away from the thread a few minutes ago. I'm concerned about Mr. Bauer.



Cake Hunter: Dinosaur cell phones must have been really big

You raise an excellent point!

webmasterjoe I don't think you can use the Bible as a source for citing scientific information. The books were written by people, and despite their good intentions, observations by people are rarely accurate

I agree we shouldn't use the bible as a scientific source..but your reasoning is strange. All that we know of science is a creation of mans observations.

peck
You raise an excellent point!

Well, I did study dinosaurs quite a bit when I was 7.

what a group of unhappy flamers.

damn...chill out folks.

-it's just fark, you know.

i like dinosaurs...so sue me!

-:)

peck: I stepped slowly away from the thread a few minutes ago. I'm concerned about Mr. Bauer.

I'd really like to hear him explain some of his, erm, theories. I'm kind of disappointed this thread is in it's last throes.

Bauer: works for baseball.

Ok...once I reformat from the sentence-fragment per double-spaced line layout, that post actually made sense.

I don't believe anything can slide around the laws of physics. We may not understand them all, but we're still subject to them.

Also, I have a problem with basing my lifestyle on the statments of a fictional character from a popular movie. But hey...movie, book, oral tradition...whatever.



Physics The Universe is what's still real even after you stop believing in it.



/the rug really pulled the room together

Bauer: what a group of unhappy flamers.

Not me. I'm quite happy. And intruiged.



/I'll be damned if I'm going to be out-eccentric'd in a science vs supernatural thread!

Bauer: jesus broke the 'laws' of physics, on a regular basis.


So did Harry Potter.

lordargent: So did Harry Potter.

He did? The little shiat! *shakes head*

if you are basing your life on the teachings of jesus christ...some would also say you are basing your life on a fictional character.

to each his own.

-forgivness of your fellow man is the path to god.

i think above all other paths.

i hope.

i hope that is what christ would want me to do.

i know nothing, however.

i know that at this momment...i am at this pc, connected to all of you.

unless you refuse to read my postings.

or ignore me, altogether.

i personally do not subscribe to the 'ignore', thingee.

i remember when it did not exist on fark.

i do not feel that it helps fark.

fark should be fark.

-in some respects...fark is very much an esp conduit.

made of silicon and electronic 'magic', we seek each other out.

why?

-because we do.

2005-07-14 02:23:12 PM lordargent


Bauer: jesus broke the 'laws' of physics, on a regular basis.


So did Harry Potter.

and i might add...he did it with style...on a broom, baby!

-i watched 'prisoner' on hbo last night....again.

the kid has the moves.

i have to be honest...i'm looking at the girl, and i'm still wondering...does she think that dinosaurs talked to each other?

she would know.

gumbyrox: All that we know of science is a creation of mans observations.

I realized after I posted it that it was a bit too vague.

What I meant was the casual observations that led to the writing of books in the Bible. Scientific observations in controlled settings are generally accurate, but the observations that led to the Bible were not scientific.

Still, when you consider the total number of observations that are made in a day, I'd wager that the vast, vast majority of them were not made in a scientific manner.

So, should we take this thread into the realm of the dinosaur, and the fact that they out-existed humans by millions of years and that the water we're drinking is most likely completely consisting of recycled dino-piss?

I would think that their cell phones were probably an earpiece connected to the mouthpiece wirelessly. That would make it portable and allow for hands-free usage.

To be clear 'observer' in the quantum physics arena does not mean "hey joe! I just saw that probablility wave collapse". An observer can be anything that interacts with the observed object.

I'm always late to the party.

Bauer:

i have to be honest...i'm looking at the girl, and i'm still wondering...does she think that dinosaurs talked to each other?

she would know.

*head asplode*

Bauer

-in some respects...fark is very much an esp conduit.

made of silicon and electronic 'magic', we seek each other out.

Bwahahahahaha!

I'm dyin here!

Bauer: she would know.

Uberchief:

*head aspolode*


Hey she would. She had the gizmo to travel through time, remember?

Lay people tend to misconstrue the explanations of scientific discoveries given in lay terms. Contrariwise, scientists tend not to get laid.

/just kidding, scientists

mbrother: She had the gizmo to travel through time, remember?

Yes, but did she have roaming on her cell phone?